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	<title>Comments on: Animal rights</title>
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		<title>By: Rafa</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-586</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 06:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-586</guid>
		<description>Also, you &quot;don&#039;t have no other blog&quot;? Must be a rapper!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, you &#8220;don&#8217;t have no other blog&#8221;? Must be a rapper!</p>
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		<title>By: Rafa</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-585</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 06:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-585</guid>
		<description>In a small addition to what Nate said, rights don&#039;t fit into the picture, and shouldn&#039;t be forced to. Natural common sense does, and animal cruelty/factory farming doesn&#039;t make any common sense. It doesn&#039;t even make any monetary sense, even though that&#039;s why the whole dang thing was invented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a small addition to what Nate said, rights don&#8217;t fit into the picture, and shouldn&#8217;t be forced to. Natural common sense does, and animal cruelty/factory farming doesn&#8217;t make any common sense. It doesn&#8217;t even make any monetary sense, even though that&#8217;s why the whole dang thing was invented.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-538</guid>
		<description>Alma, I think you may be falling into the trap that Rafa describes: that of thinking that the opposite of animal rights is animal cruelty, and that something akin to animal rights is necessary to prevent cruelty.  Again, being against animal rights doesn&#039;t mean I&#039;m in favor of animal cruelty!

Yes, once we&#039;ve domesticated an animal we&#039;re in the position of needing to take care of it, but that is generally provided for by the animal&#039;s purpose in being domesticated.  The ill-treated hunting dog fails to retrieve felled birds; the mistreated cow gives little milk: the abused house-pet becomes aggressive and temperamental.  If we exploit our domesticated animals, then they become less useful for the functions for which they have been domesticated.  Responsible owners endeavor to prevent these outcomes because it would cost them time, money, and aggravation in correcting the undesirable behavior or acquiring another animal.

Factory-farming is in fact similar.  Factory-farmed animals live lives full of fear in unsanitary conditions, which makes their meat tough and often unsanitary.  Organic meat tastes better and is the clearly superior product as a result of the less cruel raising and slaughtering process.  In the end it will probably win out because it is more appetizing and healthier, and you get what you pay for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alma, I think you may be falling into the trap that Rafa describes: that of thinking that the opposite of animal rights is animal cruelty, and that something akin to animal rights is necessary to prevent cruelty.  Again, being against animal rights doesn&#8217;t mean I&#8217;m in favor of animal cruelty!</p>
<p>Yes, once we&#8217;ve domesticated an animal we&#8217;re in the position of needing to take care of it, but that is generally provided for by the animal&#8217;s purpose in being domesticated.  The ill-treated hunting dog fails to retrieve felled birds; the mistreated cow gives little milk: the abused house-pet becomes aggressive and temperamental.  If we exploit our domesticated animals, then they become less useful for the functions for which they have been domesticated.  Responsible owners endeavor to prevent these outcomes because it would cost them time, money, and aggravation in correcting the undesirable behavior or acquiring another animal.</p>
<p>Factory-farming is in fact similar.  Factory-farmed animals live lives full of fear in unsanitary conditions, which makes their meat tough and often unsanitary.  Organic meat tastes better and is the clearly superior product as a result of the less cruel raising and slaughtering process.  In the end it will probably win out because it is more appetizing and healthier, and you get what you pay for.</p>
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		<title>By: Alma</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Alma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 04:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-529</guid>
		<description>Also, &quot;factory farming&quot; puts humans in charge of animals&#039; lives in ways that they are never in charge of animals that are living &quot;in the wild.&quot;  So although the factory-farmed animals might not have &quot;rights&quot; in the legal/logical/philosophical sense that you talk about,  it&#039;s also not right/appropriate/logical to put them in the same category as wild animals in terms of their relations to humans.  Once we&#039;ve decided to make animals entirely dependent on us for their every living moment, it seems to me that we become more responsible for their well-being--and factory-farmed animals don&#039;t seem very well off by any standards!  (Michael Pollan&#039;s The Omnivore&#039;s Dilemma paints about as bleak a picture as one can imagine of the sad life of a factory-farmed animal...)  The same can be said of our pets--once we domesticate animals, they live very different lives than their wild cousins, thanks to how we treat them (for better or worse), and I&#039;m guessing that you&#039;re not saying pet owners have a perfect right to be endlessly cruel to their pets without any consequences because the pets have no &quot;rights&quot;...??  (Think Winnie!)  So we might not say that these animals (farmed, or pets) have &quot;rights&quot; in the legal sense that humans do--but I think most people would agree that for our part, we humans (who take over the lives of these animals) have responsibilities toward them to treat them ethically and without needless cruelty... (Again--think Winnie!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, &#8220;factory farming&#8221; puts humans in charge of animals&#8217; lives in ways that they are never in charge of animals that are living &#8220;in the wild.&#8221;  So although the factory-farmed animals might not have &#8220;rights&#8221; in the legal/logical/philosophical sense that you talk about,  it&#8217;s also not right/appropriate/logical to put them in the same category as wild animals in terms of their relations to humans.  Once we&#8217;ve decided to make animals entirely dependent on us for their every living moment, it seems to me that we become more responsible for their well-being&#8211;and factory-farmed animals don&#8217;t seem very well off by any standards!  (Michael Pollan&#8217;s The Omnivore&#8217;s Dilemma paints about as bleak a picture as one can imagine of the sad life of a factory-farmed animal&#8230;)  The same can be said of our pets&#8211;once we domesticate animals, they live very different lives than their wild cousins, thanks to how we treat them (for better or worse), and I&#8217;m guessing that you&#8217;re not saying pet owners have a perfect right to be endlessly cruel to their pets without any consequences because the pets have no &#8220;rights&#8221;&#8230;??  (Think Winnie!)  So we might not say that these animals (farmed, or pets) have &#8220;rights&#8221; in the legal sense that humans do&#8211;but I think most people would agree that for our part, we humans (who take over the lives of these animals) have responsibilities toward them to treat them ethically and without needless cruelty&#8230; (Again&#8211;think Winnie!)</p>
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		<title>By: Nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-516</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-516</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s frustrating how people lump you in with the on-TV fanatics if you share even one thing in common with them.  Against affirmative action?  Looks like you&#039;re a racist!  Approve of the stimulus?  Must be a commie!

Also, I don&#039;t have no other blog anymore; I decided a while back to consolidate everything here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s frustrating how people lump you in with the on-TV fanatics if you share even one thing in common with them.  Against affirmative action?  Looks like you&#8217;re a racist!  Approve of the stimulus?  Must be a commie!</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t have no other blog anymore; I decided a while back to consolidate everything here.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafa</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-515</guid>
		<description>P.S. Shouldn&#039;t this belong on your other blog?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Shouldn&#8217;t this belong on your other blog?</p>
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		<title>By: Rafa</title>
		<link>http://techpaladin.com/2009/11/29/animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techpaladin.com/?p=423#comment-512</guid>
		<description>Hear hear. Perfectly articulated. You have brilliantly shown exactly how stupid the concept of animal rights is, and I really couldn&#039;t have put it better or more succinctly.

The problem with this, though, is a problem of social perception. By saying &quot;animals have no rights&quot; you have now (in the eyes of a lot of people who jump to conclusions) put yourself in a position legitimizing cruelty to animals. And by cruelty to animals, I obviously don&#039;t mean &quot;killing them and eating them&quot;, I mean factory farming - what basically amounts to pointless profit-driven torture, with social gains that are far outweighed by the social costs. Because in social terminology, &quot;animal rights&quot; is the opposite of &quot;animal cruelty&quot;, and thus spurning one automatically associates you with the other, and all its related terms and ideologies (i.e. anti-animal rights probably means you&#039;re also pro industry, anti-environmentalist, pro Hummer, etc. etc.). I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve already encountered this wonderful American binary system of guilt by association for being a gun enthusiast. You&#039;re pro-gun rights? You imperialist, Bible-thumping, neocon pro-lifer!

I&#039;m anti-industrialized farming not because I believe in animal rights, but because agribusiness treats animals as if they aren&#039;t animals (and, incidentally, the animal rights activists are doing this too, as you have pointed out). And every time we treat nature as if it is something it isn&#039;t, we get into big trouble. Every environmental and social problem we have arises from humanity treating nature (ourselves included) as if it weren&#039;t what it actually is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear hear. Perfectly articulated. You have brilliantly shown exactly how stupid the concept of animal rights is, and I really couldn&#8217;t have put it better or more succinctly.</p>
<p>The problem with this, though, is a problem of social perception. By saying &#8220;animals have no rights&#8221; you have now (in the eyes of a lot of people who jump to conclusions) put yourself in a position legitimizing cruelty to animals. And by cruelty to animals, I obviously don&#8217;t mean &#8220;killing them and eating them&#8221;, I mean factory farming &#8211; what basically amounts to pointless profit-driven torture, with social gains that are far outweighed by the social costs. Because in social terminology, &#8220;animal rights&#8221; is the opposite of &#8220;animal cruelty&#8221;, and thus spurning one automatically associates you with the other, and all its related terms and ideologies (i.e. anti-animal rights probably means you&#8217;re also pro industry, anti-environmentalist, pro Hummer, etc. etc.). I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve already encountered this wonderful American binary system of guilt by association for being a gun enthusiast. You&#8217;re pro-gun rights? You imperialist, Bible-thumping, neocon pro-lifer!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m anti-industrialized farming not because I believe in animal rights, but because agribusiness treats animals as if they aren&#8217;t animals (and, incidentally, the animal rights activists are doing this too, as you have pointed out). And every time we treat nature as if it is something it isn&#8217;t, we get into big trouble. Every environmental and social problem we have arises from humanity treating nature (ourselves included) as if it weren&#8217;t what it actually is.</p>
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